The Business of Broadway

Jill Furman is a theatrical producer and winner of multiple Tony awards. She's part of the team that brought breakout successes Hamilton and In The Heights to Broadway.

In this podcast, Motley Fool host Mary Long caught up with Jill for a conversation about:

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• Pitching investors to back shows even when 80% of projects don't recoup their initial investment.
• Working on original projects versus those based on existing stories.
• The formula for commercially successful musicals.

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A full transcript follows the video.

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This video was recorded on Feb. 17, 2025

Jill Furman: Eighty percent of shows don't recoup. Nobody knows anything. I always say William Goldman, who wrote The Princess Bride and All The President's Men among many other things, he said about the film business, nobody knows anything. I always use that because we have no idea what's going to work. We're going on our gut and our passion and our belief. Who is to say?

Mary Long: I'm Mary Long, and that's Jill Furman. She's a Broadway producer, one of the people who helped bring Hamilton, which has grossed over a billion dollars since its 2015 debut, to Broadway and beyond. I caught up with Jill to talk about the business of Broadway. We also discuss how to find investors to finance shows when most projects don't even make back their initial investment. What made Hamilton's work and theater's scalability problem. Jill, the world of theater is its own little island. Maybe you can start by giving us an idea. For those that are unfamiliar with the business of theater, what is it that a Broadway producer actually does?

Jill Furman: A Broadway producer wears many hats, and there are a lot of different ways to be a Broadway producer. If you look at the Playbill Title page, you'll see a lot of names, usually, above the title and that's because there are lead producers, which is what I generally am and were the people who shepherd the whole show from beginning to end. We're responsible for literally everything, developing it, raising money overseeing the casting, the marketing, the advertising, making decisions about when we should close, if we can raise a priority loan to keep running. Many questions that we answer, but there are also co-producers who are the people who help us get the shows up, by either giving or getting a certain amount of money. There are different tranches and you get more bang for your book, depending on how much you give or get. We have kickers once we hit profit, etc. But I often say that producing is the art of saying, yes, judiciously and no politely. I read that somewhere and I think it's a perfect way to encapsulate what we do. Because what I'm trying to do is to support an artist's vision. But it also has to make financial sense. There's a lot to balance in that equation.

Mary Long: Maybe let's talk about how something goes from a vision that an artist has an idea that an artist has to a actual project that is real, physical, and hopefully makes financial sense. How does a show go from idea to production?

Jill Furman: Well, every show has its own DNA. Every show takes a different path, and part of the producer's responsibility is to figure out what path makes the most sense for that particular show and that particular creative team. You do that, obviously, with the creative team. You're not just making that decision unilaterally. But I'll use Suffs, which is my recent show about the suffragists who got the 19th Amendment pass as an example, my producing partner, Rachel Sussman, she had the idea to do it. She brought the only firsthand account of the moment to Shaina Taub. It was a book called, Jailed for Freedom by Doris Stevens, who was a character in the show. She gave it to Shaina. She said, I think this needs to be musicalized. People don't know this story and I think you're the person to do it. Shaina read it. This was back, by the way, in 2014. She read it. She loved it. She said, I'm your girl, I want to do this.

Two years later in 2016, they came to me, they're much younger than I am and neither of them, at that point, had had any commercial experience. Rachel, specifically, wanted to work with a woman who had done it before. We started in earnest in 2016 with we had a 45-minute session which was just us, where we had some actors come in. Nikki James being one of them, who ended up in the show. She's been one of Shaina's muses since the beginning. We started with that. Then we partnered with the public Theater, which was amazing for us. Many shows partner with not-for-profits before they, actually, make a move commercially and it's a way to test out the project. You get to use their contracts. It's cheaper. Typically, you enhance a production that the regional or not-for-profit produces. For example, with Suffs, we raised 50% of the production costs for the public theater run. When we did that, we were attached as the commercial producers. We went to the public we didn't get the greatest reviews. We got mixed reviews. There were wonderful things about the show, problematic things about the show, we took the next year and a half to work on it. We thought we knew what we had to do and, basically, everyone had written us off, but we really believed in the story and the timing, it kept getting timelier. Then we brought it to Broadway last year, 2024. Ten years from when they started. It is an endless journey and there are twists and turns, and you just never know what's going to happen.

Mary Long: Completely. Just hearing you talk about that, one of the things that sticks out to me so much is the timeline. I think if you're on the outside, if you're in the public, you might hear about a once a decade breakout show and it feels like it was an overnight success. But as you just illustrated, even shows that play to smaller audiences and can still be successful take a really long time to bring to fruition. When you mentioned the commercial viability of a project, how do you build out in those early days? You mentioned that there are so many changes that are happening on the fly. How does a production team figure out this is what it will, actually, cost to bring the show to life? How do you figure that out when so many things seem to be changing throughout that whole production process?

Jill Furman: It's not easy. The whole thing is a pretty daunting task. We hire general managers whose job it is to oversee the budgets for us and everything's gotten so much more expensive. Union costs are extremely high, supply chain issues, inflation, all that has contributed. We have a general idea of what developing a show will cost. For example, to do when we did our first reading of the show after the public theater, it cost us a million dollars. It's a lot of money, but we knew it would be well spent and we knew it was better than our going to another not-for-profit before coming to Broadway. A lot of shows do that, too. Dear Evan Hansen, which was a commercial hit and won the Tony on Broadway. It had two not-for-profit runs before it came to Broadway. Basically, it's not a good business. I always talk about how stupid it is. I love it and I'm so proud of what I've done, but 80% of shows don't recoup. Nobody knows anything.

I always say William Goldman, who wrote the Princess Bride and All The President's Men among many other things, he said about the film business, nobody knows anything. I always use that because we have no idea what's going to work. We're going on our gut and our passion and our belief. Who is to say? A lot of investors and co-producers, though, obviously, you want to make money, but they know going in that it's very difficult. So many people, for instance, on Suffs we haven't made our investors money back. I think we will definitely return money over the course because we have tour, we have licensing. There's a lot that's going to happen. But I think that they're so proud of being involved with the show. That is often what it's about, given what's going on in the world, being about women and the fact that we only got the vote a little over 100 years ago. The fact that I went to an all girls school didn't know that story. Investors get involved for different reasons. But with Hamilton, for example, which I produced, people were throwing money at us. Suffs was much harder to raise money for.

I would go to new people and one person said, "so basically, you're asking me to set my money on fire?" What's hard is that obviously, I have been very successful with certain shows with Hamilton, obviously, which is the gift that keeps on giving and In the Heights. But it's so rare. I'm selling my passion, I'm selling my belief. I have a fairly good track record, so people are more willing to trust me, even though I don't know what's going to work. I thought Suffs would work better. I do think within ten years, people are going to recognize it as a seminal American musical. I'm not just saying that because I'm involved. I really believe that. Some of these things also take time. There's a saying you can't make a living, but you can make a killing. All my friends make fun of me because I'm always saying that, but that is a phrase that everyone in our business says.

Mary Long: Investors love certainty. Everything you just said, I'm sitting there and thinking, that's not going to fly, right, [laughs] with a lot of investors that are more financially minded. Yet, you're able to find people that are willing to put their money behind different projects. Paint a picture of who a lot of these investors are. You mentioned passion. Are they more art-minded folks that just love to be involved in this business? As a producer, when you're working on a new project, do you find yourself returning to a lot of the same investors to get them hyped? Do you look in different corners for new people that might be interested in, maybe not project Y, but project X?

Jill Furman: Absolutely. I started with friends and family and then grew out from there. I remember on In the Heights, which was the first show I was raising money for, it was the first show I was a lead producer on. I went to my childhood orthodontist and dentist, because I just thought, Well, you know what? I'm offering people an opportunity, so I might as well try. They both passed. They both wish they had passed.

Mary Long: Of course.

Jill Furman: Because also that would have given them the chance to be involved with Hamilton. Because obviously, anyone who had invested with me before, I gave the right to invest in Hamilton. I think it depends. It's a sexy thing to be involved, and it's fun. You get to go to the opening night, and you have access to house seats so you can get people tickets if you're investing. I think, by and large, though, these are people who are angel-minded investors who want to support art going forward. I will ask anyone because first of all, like I said, I'm offering an opportunity. Second of all, people are usually very grateful to be asked. Sometimes people don't respond, fine. But most of the time, people are very grateful. I cast my net widely and there are some producers, by the way, like you said Project X or Project Y, who say, well I have this and this is a no-brainer. For instance, I said nobody knows anything, but we do know that if George Clooney stars in a play, it's going to be a hit.

It might not make a ton of money because it's a limited run by its very nature, it can't, but no one is going to lose their shirts on a new George Clooney play or Robert Downey Junior just did McNeil or Audra McDonald and Gypsy. But a lot of times someone will say, well, if you invest in this, then I also want you to invest in this other project. If you get the opportunity to do this one, then this one's a little riskier, but I want you involved in that, too. Well, some producers do that.

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Mary Long: As investors, we think about value levers. The buttons a company can push, the levers that they can pull to draw more value out of the business. As I'm thinking about Broadway, there are a few value levers that come to mind that a production can push to help increase a show's chance of financial success. One, casting. You've got a big star headlining the show. It might draw more people in. You worked with Jessica Chastain, I believe, to bring a revival of a play to Broadway?

Jill Furman: Yes.

Mary Long: Sometimes, this works and sometimes it doesn't. A revival of Funny Girl came to Broadway in 2022 and Beanie Feldstein, a Hollywood star, originated the revivals role of the lead Fanny Brice. But she left early because the show wasn't doing nearly as well as producers had hoped. Bring in Leah Michelle and the show totally turns around. A different casting choice makes all the difference, but a star alone isn't necessarily enough to bring people in. How do you think about casting? What say do you have in that department as a producer?

Jill Furman: Well, I have a lot to say, ultimately, it's up to the creative team. I did do the Heiress with Jessica Chastain, as you said and I've done a few plays, but by and large, what I like to do is create original musicals or I'm working on a show based on the book and movie Wonder. There's existing IP, but I'm still trying to make it feel original. When you have an original musical, that musical should be the star. Because what happens is, if you put like an actual Hollywood star in a new musical, what happens when they leave? There's no guarantee anyway, but if they leave after six months, but let's say they give you a year, then is your show still going to work? Are you going to need to get someone who is at that same level or have you established the show, as an entity in its own? I don't personally ever want to put a star in an original musical. But that is certainly a very big part of the calculation for people. I've gotten a little disillusioned with the business for a number of reasons. One is it's what people want to see. They want to see stars and plays or the umpteenth revival of a show starring a star. Eddie Redmayne and Cabaret, Audra McDonald and Gypsy. These are wonderful productions, and amazing to see these people live. Audra McDonald's won more Tony's than anyone in the world ever. She's won six, I believe, and she's fantastic. But how many times do I need to see Gypsy? Even if it's maybe the greatest music ever written. Although I would argue Hamilton is. But it just depends on what producer you want to be and what shows you want to be involved in?

Mary Long: Another lover might be this existing IP story. If that something has worked in another format, we can reasonably believe that we're going to get people in seats when we turn it into a musical. You mentioned that you prefer to work on original musical projects, but that now you're trying to bring this young adult book movie Wonder to the stage. What caused you to think about that differently or what got you interested in wonder that made you change your mind about, I typically work on original stuff, but I really want to work on this?

Jill Furman: I was so moved by both the book and the movie. I thought it sang, which is something that we musical theater producers say when we're evaluating a project, whether we believe that it sings. I thought it did. I think it has a very important message. It's about choosing kind. It's about changing the way we see. It's about kids, especially, but people realizing that it's OK to be different and everyone has their stuff. I have always said that, obviously, wicked is a fantastic musical and it's the prequel to a beloved story. But I also believe that one of the reasons it's so successful is because it allows girls to know it's OK to be different. I think Wonder does that also. My feeling is a lot of times, what happens is producers can be risk averse. They're taking existing IP and it's a commodity that people know. You think you have a built in audience and often you do. But a lot of times what happens is they literally put the movie on stage with music. It's literally like the movie, and then they just add some music.

My feeling is, if I'm going to do Wonder, it's got to have a reason for existing on stage. We're trying to come up with theatrical ways. It's called Wonder, first of all, but we want to make it different. What is the reason why someone who loves the book and loves the movie is going to pay $125 to come see it on stage. That's very important to me. This was an exception for me because first of all, it's a beloved story and it sold almost 16 million copies worldwide and the movie made $300 million. I'm just hoping I don't mess it up.

Mary Long: In this erasure. Hamilton and Wicked both stand out as two just breakout successes within the past two decades. We'll focus on Hamilton because you worked on that show. Correct me if my numbers are wrong here, but I believe the upfront production cost of Hamilton was about $12.5 million.

Jill Furman: Yes, a little over that.

Mary Long: It made that back within a single year. It's since made over a billion dollars and it is the gift that keeps on giving. It's still on Broadway. It's still on tour. I just saw it in Denver a couple of months ago. No one knows anything, but now hindsight is 2020. What was it about Hamilton that has made it so commercially successful?

Jill Furman: I think, Lin-Manuel, is a genius. I think the show is absolutely brilliant. I had worked with him on In the Heights. I was working with him and I thought he was a genius then. I mean, obviously, no one could have predicted what would come out of his mind, least of all him. But I think it's refreshing. It's brilliant. It breaks new ground, but it also honors what musical theater has always been and I think the fact that it came out in the Obama era had something to do with it. Obviously, if it opened today, it would still be successful. I just don't know if it would have the same impact, because the world is very different. But I would tell people about the Hip Hop story of Alexander Hamilton and they thought I was crazy? Of course, it sounds insane, but we just believed and it's how I felt about it In the Heights, too. Because we did it off Broadway first in a commercial production off-Broadway, and people said you didn't sell out and you didn't get great reviews and why are you putting a Latino Hip Hop show on stage? We said, It's not a Latino Hip Hop show. It's Fiddler on the Roof, and it just happens to use this music.

Again, we could have been wrong on both. Luckily and happily, we were right. People asked me if I knew how successful Hamilton was going to become and of course not. There was no way to predict the tsunami that happened. We knew it was going to be good. We did a workshop of it in May the year before it started previews at the public, and we had young kids there. We had Mike Nichols there. We had tons of just all different kinds of people, and everyone was going completely crazy.

Mary Long: Before Hamilton, there is In the Heights. Maybe that show is less familiar to people that aren't deep in the theater world, but also a fabulous production. This was Lin-Manuel Miranda's first musical and again, you were a part of it from the very beginning. How does that end up on your desk? How does that script come to find you?

Jill Furman: Well, I made a movie that no one saw. But one of the actors in the movie called me in December of 2002 and he said, "You need to go see this show that's being workshop in the basement of the drama bookshop." It's like a Latino rent. At the time, Rent came out in 1996. At the time, everything was a something rent. [laughs] I thought, well this is what I do, I go and see stuff. I went and I'm in this tiny little Blackbox theater. Lin came out on stage and he played Usnavi. At the time, he had written the whole thing. He had written the book, the music, the lyrics. The world was the same, obviously. A lot of the characters were the same, but it had a different emphasis. But still he came out on stage and I just thought, who is this kid? He was 23, I think, at the time and I just thought.

I was sitting forward in my seat in a way that I don't and I even get chills when I talk about it. Like right now, I'm getting chills. I just thought, I need to be in this person's life. It was very lucky. I often say luck is the residue of design, which was an essay question for one of my college applications. I had to talk about that, so I've been using it ever since. You have to make your own luck to a degree, but I was in the right place at the right time. I also believed I put my money where my mouth was. One thing I haven't said is we consider theater or research and development business, because as a producer, you don't make any money at all until a show is produced, if commercially. For almost eight years, I didn't make anything on Suffs and just was raising money or spending my own money. You're placing a big bet on someone or something. That's how that happened. Suffs happened because one of my former assistants who I had then made in associate, I was having her go out and meet with people, and she met with Shaina and she said, "I think there's something here I think you should meet with her."

Mary Long: The parallel I can't help but think of, it's a venture capitalist meeting a founder and it's sometimes the idea, but it's also the magnetism and the vision of this artist. One business question for you before we wrap up, the business world is obsessed with scale and theater is really interesting to me because inherently, it doesn't really scale. We've seen examples of wicked, commercial success turned into a movie. That's a way to scale it. Hamilton went to Disney+, but when it's still theater, what you can only sell so many tickets to so many seats in a singular theater, so many nights of the week. What does that mean from a business perspective?

Jill Furman: It's a charitable business. It just makes it that much more difficult. Of course, you're hoping for something like a wicked or a Hamilton, which is almost impossible. But you do have other ancillaries, including Murch, including the album, including touring, Hamilton has productions right now all over the place. Obviously, so does Wicked and Suffs is going to go out on tour. There's money to be made from licensing. Frankly, that's the most important thing, sometimes, for the creators and certainly in Shaina's case she grew up in rural Vermont and listened to cast albums. That's how she learned about theater. She just wanted kids all over the world to learn about this movement and be excited by it and to maybe do it in their schools one day. That can keep a show going. Those ancillaries are helpful, but yes, you're right. The likelihood is that you're going to have a short-lived show on Broadway. Maybe it goes on tour. Maybe you have an album, but that's it. It's difficult.

Mary Long: I'm sure you see lots of productions as a part of your work and also, just as a part of your passion for theater. Is there anything that you're not involved in, right now, that you think is absolutely stellar, whether it's on Broadway, off Broadway, that you just thought was spectacular and special?

Jill Furman: This is such a good question. Well, this is going to be an annoying answer because the show closed, but I saw the play the Hills of California by Jez Butterworth, who wrote The Ferryman and I thought it was absolutely beautiful and brilliant. I assume that we'll have a life. But I'm trying to think if there's anything else. I'm very picky. I can't think of anything now. I'm looking forward to a few shows coming down the pike, like Buena Vista Social Club. I feel bad not being able to answer this question very well, but it's the reason I don't do very many shows is because I am so picky.

Mary Long: I would think that pickiness is a good quality for a producer to have.

Jill Furman: I think people when I ask them to invest, they know that I put a lot of thought into it.

Mary Long: Jill Furman, thanks so much for the time and for giving us some insight into show business. We appreciate you coming on to Motley Fool Money.

Jill Furman: You're so welcome. It was really fun. Thank you for having me.

Mary Long: As always, people on the program may have interest in the stocks they talk about and the Motley Fool may have formal recommendations for or against. Throw buy or sell stocks based solely on what you hear. All personal finance content follows Motley Fool editorial standards and is not approved by advertisers. The Motley Fool only picks products that it would personally recommend to friends like you. I'm Mary Long. Thanks for listening. We'll be off on Monday for Presidents' Day, but we'll be back on the airways on Tuesday. If you two have a long weekend, we hope you enjoy it. See you Tuesday, Fools.

Mary Long has no position in any of the stocks mentioned. Ricky Mulvey has positions in Walt Disney. The Motley Fool has positions in and recommends Walt Disney. The Motley Fool has a disclosure policy.